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Old 01-09-2008, 09:59 PM
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Default Dogs or Wolves or...?

Hello guys -

I am studying for a intermediate diploma in Canine Therapy and Behaviour....
At the moment my topic is The evolution of dogs to wolves, and whether they did actually evolve and become different or whether domestic dogs are actually wolves in dogs clothing.

Also up for discussion is the need for pack rules and 'rank reduction' (where you re introduce 'pack rules' such as not letting a dog go through a doorway first or not letting a dog on the sofa, or making it eat last in the household, to solve a behaviour problem) is this necessary? Does treating them as a 'pack' animal work? Or could this just lead to a depressed doggy?

And how about dominence? Are dogs dominant? Do they strive to raise their status or is it as simple as they are just dogs?

I would love to hear all your opinions - it may help me see what the general consensus is before I start to practice as a therapist.

Thanks guys

BlOnDiE xXxX
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2008, 10:36 AM
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have you ever lived or worked with Dogs Blondie?
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:48 AM
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It is a pity you didn't see the Martin Clunes programme on ITV which explains most of what you are asking. In short, the genetic build of both dogs and wolves is the same. The pack instinct is just as strong in domesticated dogs as it is in a wolf pack. As a dog owner you have to be seen as the pack leader. This reference gives a good explanation of the subject although the WEB Page is a bit messy with vertical blue stripes spoiling the appearance. REFERENCES TO WOLF/DOG GENETIC HISTORY

This lnk gives another view which, again, compares the genetic build of dogs and wolves. In this case it is the husky which is used in the comparison but other breeds are also mentioned. Wolves & Wolf-dogs

I hope this helps.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:09 PM
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These questions have been considered by the following:

Genetics and the Social Behaviour of the Dog by John paulk Scott and John L.. Fuller
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia B. McConnell PhD.
The Dog's Mind by Bruce Fogle (the one in Jemima Harrison's BBC doc) (I have two copies.. if you want one contact me privately.)
And most of all, Dogs by Ray and Lorna Coppinger...a wel-known study.
Also the Silver Fox experiment done in Russia to lok at these issues. (can't remember the real name for it...ak your tutor.)
Also Cesar Millan's latest book "Be the Pack Leader" if you think he carries any scientific weight.
Some of your questions are a bit simple and too generalised. It depends on the amount of breeding and genetic manipulation Man has done to the breed. From personal experience with working dogs, those tricks of pack dominance do work with young dogs which need it. Some dogs are just naturally submissive and need their confidence boosting.
And I doubt that dogs can be depressed...that's anthropomorphising them. If a dog is unhappy it finds its place in the pack which suits him.

Happy reading! They are the salient texts regarding your enquiry. And they are fascinating!!
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:11 PM
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Apologies for the typos...I knocked the reply off quickly as I am trying to do some research and can't get off disscussion groups today!!
Ah self-control, wherefore art thou?????
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Apologies for the typos...I knocked the reply off quickly as I am trying to do some research and can't get off disscussion groups today!!
Ah self-control, wherefore art thou?????
If you are doing some research today Sweet Pea don't try the Nitric Acid/Sulphuric Acid mixture with Glycerine - Alfred Nobel has already done it.

There is plenty of stuff on the Internet dealing with dogs, wolves, genetics and behaviour patterns. References to books by John Paul Scott and Lorna Coppinger (your recommendation) and also James Sorpel come up if you type "Dogs Wolves Genetics Behaviour" into Google without the quotation marks plus 105,000 other references.

Living with dogs is the best way of sorting out their foibles and behaviour patterns. Individuality doesn't come out much with books.
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:33 PM
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True but one dog does not make a pack...or something like that.

if you want individuality, this just dropped into another mailbox of mine. It certaily changed my perception of wolves and our Blondie might just enjoy it too!
(sorry but the URL wasn't available...it was already a copy.)


Wolves choose fishing over hunting: study Canada.com
Wolves choose fishing over hunting: study
Tom Spears,, Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, September 01, 2008
Wolves would rather fish than hunt, says a new Canadian study that found British Columbia wolves turn up their noses at deer when they can catch spawning salmon.

Not only is fish great food, the B.C. biologists found, but it's also safer for wolves, which can suffer crippling injuries hunting deer and elk.

Chris Darimont's research team is wryly calling the wolf "Canada's newest marine mammal." The term usually means whales and seals.

And it's a reflection of Canadiana that may be very, very old. What if wolves once practised this over a huge area, when wolves and salmon were more abundant in southern B.C. and on Canada's east coast, and even around Lake Ontario, once home to Atlantic salmon?
"We see this as stepping back in time," said Mr. Darimont, who does his research at the University of Victoria and the Raincoast Conservation Foundation.

The evidence comes partly from 4,000 grey-wolf droppings, collected over four years. He washed these and combed through what was left for an analysis of the animals' diet.

During the spring and summer, the food is at least 90-per-cent deer meat. During the fall salmon run, it switches to salmon.

(In case anyone wants to double-check the evidence, about half of it is still stored in Mr. Darimont's mother's basement, carefully labelled.)

Further, analysis of tufts of wolf hair shows the chemical clincher. A diet of seafood contributes different "isotopes," or atomic forms, of carbon and nitrogen than a diet of anything found on land. And these wolves were carrying carbon and nitrogen from the sea.

But was this just a case of desperation when deer were scarce?

It seems not. All eight unconnected families of wolves camped out by spawning creeks each September and October, no matter how many deer were around. They liked fish better.

Which makes sense, Mr. Darimont said.

"It's a very safe (diet). You don't risk getting clobbered" by a kick from an elk. "It's very, very nutritious in terms of fat and protein. It's very predictable, and you don't have to chase it for kilometres and kilometres. It comes to you. The buffet is right in the creek," he said.

The study is published today in the research journal BMC Ecology.

"Wolves are really good hunters of salmon. It's just bizarre to watch," the biologist said.

They pick a spot of shallow water and wait. When the fish comes close, they make a short dash, heads down, and plunge their faces underwater to grab the hump on the salmon's back.

"We've seen a wolf that in this ecosystem is probably only 70 or 80 pounds, lifting a 20- (or) 25-pound chum salmon, just wiggling for its life. You can see the neck and shoulder musculature of the wolf flex out and stiffen."

On shore, the wolf holds down the fish with one paw and rips the head off. It eats the rest.

Salmon-eating wolves are found in wilderness areas from the north tip of Vancouver Island up to southern Alaska.

Canadian scientists have made a series of recent discoveries about how salmon influence areas inland. Decaying salmon bodies help make the soil fertile in river valleys. And salmon are also carrying pollutants from the Pacific into inland lakes.

"Every day we find out more ways in which salmon influence the terrestrial landscape," Mr. Darimont said. "Imagine how many other surprises there are out there."

Wolves choose fishing over hunting: study Canada.com
Wolves choose fishing over hunting: study
Tom Spears,, Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, September 01, 2008
Wolves would rather fish than hunt, says a new Canadian study that found British Columbia wolves turn up their noses at deer when they can catch spawning salmon.

Not only is fish great food, the B.C. biologists found, but it's also safer for wolves, which can suffer crippling injuries hunting deer and elk.

Chris Darimont's research team is wryly calling the wolf "Canada's newest marine mammal." The term usually means whales and seals.

And it's a reflection of Canadiana that may be very, very old. What if wolves once practised this over a huge area, when wolves and salmon were more abundant in southern B.C. and on Canada's east coast, and even around Lake Ontario, once home to Atlantic salmon?
"We see this as stepping back in time," said Mr. Darimont, who does his research at the University of Victoria and the Raincoast Conservation Foundation.

The evidence comes partly from 4,000 grey-wolf droppings, collected over four years. He washed these and combed through what was left for an analysis of the animals' diet.

During the spring and summer, the food is at least 90-per-cent deer meat. During the fall salmon run, it switches to salmon.

(In case anyone wants to double-check the evidence, about half of it is still stored in Mr. Darimont's mother's basement, carefully labelled.)

Further, analysis of tufts of wolf hair shows the chemical clincher. A diet of seafood contributes different "isotopes," or atomic forms, of carbon and nitrogen than a diet of anything found on land. And these wolves were carrying carbon and nitrogen from the sea.

But was this just a case of desperation when deer were scarce?

It seems not. All eight unconnected families of wolves camped out by spawning creeks each September and October, no matter how many deer were around. They liked fish better.

Which makes sense, Mr. Darimont said.

"It's a very safe (diet). You don't risk getting clobbered" by a kick from an elk. "It's very, very nutritious in terms of fat and protein. It's very predictable, and you don't have to chase it for kilometres and kilometres. It comes to you. The buffet is right in the creek," he said.

The study is published today in the research journal BMC Ecology.

"Wolves are really good hunters of salmon. It's just bizarre to watch," the biologist said.

They pick a spot of shallow water and wait. When the fish comes close, they make a short dash, heads down, and plunge their faces underwater to grab the hump on the salmon's back.

"We've seen a wolf that in this ecosystem is probably only 70 or 80 pounds, lifting a 20- (or) 25-pound chum salmon, just wiggling for its life. You can see the neck and shoulder musculature of the wolf flex out and stiffen."

On shore, the wolf holds down the fish with one paw and rips the head off. It eats the rest.

Salmon-eating wolves are found in wilderness areas from the north tip of Vancouver Island up to southern Alaska.

Canadian scientists have made a series of recent discoveries about how salmon influence areas inland. Decaying salmon bodies help make the soil fertile in river valleys. And salmon are also carrying pollutants from the Pacific into inland lakes.

"Every day we find out more ways in which salmon influence the terrestrial landscape," Mr. Darimont said. "Imagine how many other surprises there are out there."
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:34 PM
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I'm signing off...I seem to now be repeating myself... sigh
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:49 PM
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This is a YouTube video of wolves fishing. You will have to wait periodically for the download to catch up with the video but it shows what happens. If you let it run and catch up then replay once it is in your RAM it is fine.YouTube - Wolves Fishing

This link gives the Science Daily report on this. Wolves Would Rather Eat Salmon

A dog looks upon your family as its pack family so "one dog does not a pack make" isn't quite true. My sons dog thinks he is the pack leader until he comes to visit when he takes a lower status part. He is still feisty but he knows who feeds him and walks behind my heels when we go "walkies". My son sometimes has him pulling on his lead just to be in the front.

Last edited by Escafeldia; 02-09-2008 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:50 PM
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Thanks guts, but I wasn't asking for the answers, I know what i think, I was asking for opinions!!!

Selki, I have lived with dogs for twenty three years, me and my dad and mum own a puppy training class and teach advanced competative obedience, I won the YKC Handler when I was 10 and trained my forst champion when I was nine!!!

lol!!!
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