Britains Jails are Holiday Camps - Page 2

Selkie · #11 (**permalink**) 26-08-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escafeldia

I am afraid that the Politically Correct brigade who go on about "Human Rights" and "re-educating criminals" to stop them re-offending again, and again, and again, are one of the reasons this country is in the mess it is in. The days when criminals who commited "robbery with violence", these days they call it "mugging", were punished by a prison sentence which meant something plus corporal punishment, the birch, is long past. I personally know of one young man who beat someone up and robbed them who was sentenced to six strokes of the birch. Because of his young age he didn't get a prison sentence. The punishment was administered directly after the trial and he swore he would never commit a similar crime again. In todays PC driven society he would have got an ASBO and maybe, just maybe, a few hours community service. The ASBO would be treated like a medal, increasing his "street credibility" and the community service may or may not be completed. The victim would come out at the bottom of the list in terms of mental stress and physical damage while the criminal would get all the sympathy and help to "reform".

Prison should be a place where the inmates do not want to stay. Where TV's and recreational facilities are not available as they are now and where the regime is strict. Work should be carried out to supplement the cost of keeping these reprobates in prison, not as a form of "spending money". The old system of Hard Labour had much to commend it. These days the work is light and the regular inmates know how to work the system. Criminals need to be made to understand that the crimes they commit are not acceptable and will be punished and their "Human Rights" have been withdrawn for the duration of their sentence.

excellent post may I say

I agree with it all

Discovery · #12 (**permalink**) 26-08-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escafeldia

I am afraid that the Politically Correct brigade who go on about "Human Rights" and "re-educating criminals" to stop them re-offending again, and again, and again, are one of the reasons this country is in the mess it is in. The days when criminals who commited "robbery with violence", these days they call it "mugging", were punished by a prison sentence which meant something plus corporal punishment, the birch, is long past. I personally know of one young man who beat someone up and robbed them who was sentenced to six strokes of the birch. Because of his young age he didn't get a prison sentence. The punishment was administered directly after the trial and he swore he would never commit a similar crime again. In todays PC driven society he would have got an ASBO and maybe, just maybe, a few hours community service. The ASBO would be treated like a medal, increasing his "street credibility" and the community service may or may not be completed. The victim would come out at the bottom of the list in terms of mental stress and physical damage while the criminal would get all the sympathy and help to "reform".

Prison should be a place where the inmates do not want to stay. Where TV's and recreational facilities are not available as they are now and where the regime is strict. Work should be carried out to supplement the cost of keeping these reprobates in prison, not as a form of "spending money". The old system of Hard Labour had much to commend it. These days the work is light and the regular inmates know how to work the system. Criminals need to be made to understand that the crimes they commit are not acceptable and will be punished and their "Human Rights" have been withdrawn for the duration of their sentence.

Yes I agree with it all too. Good post Esca.

Sweet Pea · #13 (**permalink**) 26-08-2008, 07:33 PM

One of the many reasons why people turn to crime in the first place is the disfunctional, often abusive families they came from. They have had no responsible role models, no advice worth taking and nowhere to go for help. They have replaced famiy which should care for street relaionships which pretend to care. They have come to see those who are strongest, loudest and who flout the system as ther models...what makes you think permanent incarcxeratin in prison will change that...they are only replacing one street society for another. The mind-set is the same.
And yes they have given up Human Rights...they cannot speak as freely as a free person can. 40% of the (ref your web site about Belmarsh) have no privacy. They cannot go to the pub or out for the day. They can't chose what to eat or what to wear or watch what they want on TV. They are forced to live amongst people they would probably not choose to live amongst. The weaker ones have to learn to avoid rther nasty treatment by other prisoners. They cannot talk to anyone they choose without waiting for visiting. They lose seeing their children growing up and worry who their wives are in bed with. These are all freedoms we take for granted.
As for hard labour, I would like to know where you have proof that it worked. There was as much crime in Victorian days...even more...than now. The US still has capital punishment...and their crime rate stays much the same. With respect I suggest that your call for hard labour and harsh punishment isn't about prisoner reform but personal revenge. There never was a Golden Age of severe punishment and criminal respect for it. Uness you solve the problems of family breakdown, social/class expectations and the role of booze and drugs in open society, no amount of flogging and hanging will change an iota of criminal behaviour.

**Sooty** · #14 (**permalink**) 26-08-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

no amount of flogging and hanging will change an iota of criminal behaviour.

Well it made it pretty difficult for John Christie to continue his serial killing spree for starters

Selkie · #15 (**permalink**) 26-08-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

One of the many reasons why people turn to crime in the first place is the disfunctional, often abusive families they came from. They have had no responsible role models, no advice worth taking and nowhere to go for help. They have replaced famiy which should care for street relaionships which pretend to care. They have come to see those who are strongest, loudest and who flout the system as ther models...what makes you think permanent incarcxeratin in prison will change that...they are only replacing one street society for another. The mind-set is the same.
And yes they have given up Human Rights...they cannot speak as freely as a free person can. 40% of the (ref your web site about Belmarsh) have no privacy. They cannot go to the pub or out for the day. They can't chose what to eat or what to wear or watch what they want on TV. They are forced to live amongst people they would probably not choose to live amongst. The weaker ones have to learn to avoid rther nasty treatment by other prisoners. They cannot talk to anyone they choose without waiting for visiting. They lose seeing their children growing up and worry who their wives are in bed with. These are all freedoms we take for granted.
As for hard labour, I would like to know where you have proof that it worked. There was as much crime in Victorian days...even more...than now. The US still has capital punishment...and their crime rate stays much the same. With respect I suggest that your call for hard labour and harsh punishment isn't about prisoner reform but personal revenge. There never was a Golden Age of severe punishment and criminal respect for it. Uness you solve the problems of family breakdown, social/class expectations and the role of booze and drugs in open society, no amount of flogging and hanging will change an iota of criminal behaviour.

I come from rather a rough area and can speak from personal experience! one hell of a lot of these little shits would behave if they got a harsh punishment, they do actually need a kicking and quite frankly they deserve it, they have ruined what was once a beautiful place and have ruined my children's childhood with their behaviour, drugs on the streets, fighting in the open, hanging about street corners looking and being threatening, and i can go as so far to say my little babies have been called c*nts by these gits you are defending, stealing anything and everything what I have worked bloody hard to get in the first place, I lost my business through not being able to afford their vandalism on my van any longer!!! they need a good thrashing and hard sentencing that actually hurts their lazy backsides! I asked at the job centre sometime back weather i could be re trained and the answer was no as i was a working class citizen and as for saying they came from harsh homes and families ect so did a lot of us but it does not make us all think we can take from others and behave like brats of the worse degree!!! all of what has been discussed on this thread i have personal experience from all angles so i know what i am talking about, I say kick their sorry asses into touch and get them working and paying for their own keep just like I have to! a blood men!!!

**Adam** · #16 (**permalink**) 27-08-2008, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

And yes they have given up Human Rights...they cannot speak as freely as a free person can. 40% of the (ref your web site about Belmarsh) have no privacy. They cannot go to the pub or out for the day. They can't chose what to eat or what to wear or watch what they want on TV. They are forced to live amongst people they would probably not choose to live amongst. The weaker ones have to learn to avoid rther nasty treatment by other prisoners. They cannot talk to anyone they choose without waiting for visiting. They lose seeing their children growing up and worry who their wives are in bed with. These are all freedoms we take for granted.

We may take them for granted - they gave up their right to freedom when they broke the law of the land.

Sweet Pea · #17 (**permalink**) 27-08-2008, 10:58 AM

Adam, I was replying directly to the comment by Escafalia that they don't give up any rights (sic). So we both agree that they do.

Selkie · #18 (**permalink**) 27-08-2008, 11:01 AM

but the point is sweet pea is they don't give up nearly enough!!

Sweet Pea · #19 (**permalink**) 27-08-2008, 11:23 AM

I see the "little s**ts" as victims of their environment and above all, the legacy of their paents and families who also were most probably little "s**ts". By all means lock up the worst offenders to get them off the streets but this conversation started about the conditions under which they are kept...and the original premise was that their incarceration was too comfortable...that they should be stripped of all comforts and be forced to something akin to hard labour (someone else's phrase, not mine).
My POV is that the original statement by the Chief of Prison Officers (a vested interest with predictable opinions) was exaggerated or at least he was generalising off the particular. I don't agree that their lives are better than the average outside except that they are now away from law-abiding citizens. They are more closely socialising with other criminals and instead of complaining about how easy it is for them to come and go, get drugs etc (which are not permitted except by turning a blind eye) that the Prison Officers Assoc should look to their own behaviour and devise ways and means to control the access to drugs, women etc WITHIN the prisons they are controlling. It isn't the fault of the prisoners but of the prison administration IF the problem exists. I wonder why he didn't give this address to his fellow officers instead of to the press since it is they who can change things.
My objection is about the motives for going public...and I suspect now as I did then when this first broke that he was touting for more money via a play on the predicted sympathies of the public who can be relied on to demand that the govt "do" something.

It often seems difficult to differentiate the causes of crime with its poper response. I tried to discuss the causes of crime...the correct response is a personal opinion and as such has no difinitive answer. I am unhappy with the response of severe physical punishment or a Bedlam-type environment as I am aware that many criminals are either educationally challenged or literally "deranged". I am not sure how hard labour will change that except that the victim will feel some revenge...perhaps justified but not a solution to continued criminal behaviour. As wih any complicated social problem, IMO there is not just one solution but a professionally sourced mix of treatment for each individual offender. As someone who has trained literally dozens of intelligent dogs, the one technique that DOESN'T work is imposition of harsh response. What DOES work is the setting of boundaries and the continuing insistence that they are kept....without harsh treatment.
But I still believe that proper intervention at an early age for those children deemed to be at risk can help...I think it is in Finland that young socially deprived children are given supportive training well before they are 10 years old. Results have shown a marked decline in criminal behaviour in these cases compared to the criminality of similar children not supported.
But as all opinions, the best we can do is keep an open mind and use those minds to the best advantage we can.

Escafeldia · #20 (**permalink**) 27-08-2008, 12:06 PM

People in prison don't give up any Human Rights - for God's sake, they complain that not having this or that facility is going against their human rights. I don't agree that the home environment is totally influential in the way they behave or their criminality. These days parents are not allowed, by law, to chastise their kids when they do wrong. Kids have been known to actually take their parents to Court for chastising them. Solomon was perfectly right when he said "Spare the rod and spoil the child". Even wild animals, such as lions will chastise their young if they get out of hand thus showing them that their behaviour isn't acceptable.

Obviously, Sweet Pea and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this matter. In which case I am saying no more on the subject of prisoners, punishment and the "holiday" conditions which our prisons seem to generate. Some of the points which cover seeing ones children grow up and not having a drink etc are just nit picking and aren't true. Visiting prisoners takes place and many people, myself included, missed much of the growing up of our children because we were in jobs which demanded being away from home for periods of time. I belong to the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade and am proud of it. We are far too ready to accept the PC values which are prevalent in Britain today and we all suffer for it.